Discussion:
GODDAMN IN-LAWS
(too old to reply)
Scheisster
2004-01-05 23:09:15 UTC
Permalink
"Oh nevermind that so many animals are on death row (in America). We want
our little purebred status symbols. Oh, Himalayans aren't actually
recognized as a 'real" breed yet? That's okay, because we're looking into
an Abyssinian."

"What's wrong with you, you don't want 90-year-old Tante Elisabeth's
antique furniture??? What do you mean, your tastes are more modern and you
want your own "look" in your own house? You mean the two Schränke you
already have are *enough*? Don't you want your house to look identical to
Oma's and Opa's? (NO GODDAMMIT, there are TWO PEOPLE in this marriage,
not just DH) Don't you realize you're an extension of US? You owe it
to us to take all of the German family trash that nobody will even sell,
because it MEANS something to US!!!! Even though it would cost you at least
1,000 Euros just to ship it to you!!!

"What do you mean, you don't want to to go %$#berg for Christmas? Isn't
traveling seven hours on the Autobahn, with all its Staus (traffic jams),
worth it, just to be with The Fam? Even though there's nobody there your
own age, nothing to do but listen to gossip about everybody else we find
fault with? But we listen to Hava Naguila and dance around in a circle!
We'll put on some Bach for you. We don't understand just why you prefer
Bach to Beethoven, but we'll try to be interested. But remember, we're the
cultured ones. We know all the drinking songs that sound like nursery
rhymes.

Send so and so, the fourth-friend removed, from the fifth cousin five times
removed, a get-well card because she has cancer. You don't know her from
Adam, but you're the wifey, and you're supposed to pretend like you know
her and send her gushy get-well wishes. Really, it's expected. Not
inappropriate at all.

I'm up to my limit. Suggestions?
--
Scheisster
No 33 Secretary
2004-01-05 23:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scheisster
"Oh nevermind that so many animals are on death row (in America). We
want our little purebred status symbols. Oh, Himalayans aren't
actually recognized as a 'real" breed yet? That's okay, because
we're looking into an Abyssinian."
"What's wrong with you, you don't want 90-year-old Tante Elisabeth's
antique furniture??? What do you mean, your tastes are more modern
and you want your own "look" in your own house? You mean the two
Schränke you already have are *enough*? Don't you want your house to
look identical to Oma's and Opa's? (NO GODDAMMIT, there are TWO
PEOPLE in this marriage, not just DH) Don't you realize you're an
extension of US? You owe it to us to take all of the German family
trash that nobody will even sell, because it MEANS something to US!!!!
Even though it would cost you at least 1,000 Euros just to ship it to
you!!!
"What do you mean, you don't want to to go %$#berg for Christmas?
Isn't traveling seven hours on the Autobahn, with all its Staus
(traffic jams), worth it, just to be with The Fam? Even though
there's nobody there your own age, nothing to do but listen to gossip
about everybody else we find fault with? But we listen to Hava
Naguila and dance around in a circle! We'll put on some Bach for you.
We don't understand just why you prefer Bach to Beethoven, but we'll
try to be interested. But remember, we're the cultured ones. We know
all the drinking songs that sound like nursery rhymes.
Send so and so, the fourth-friend removed, from the fifth cousin five
times removed, a get-well card because she has cancer. You don't know
her from Adam, but you're the wifey, and you're supposed to pretend
like you know her and send her gushy get-well wishes. Really, it's
expected. Not inappropriate at all.
I'm up to my limit. Suggestions?
Move to a country that will let you carry a gun.
--
Terry Austin
***@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
Kathleen Ward
2004-01-05 23:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scheisster
Send so and so, the fourth-friend removed, from the fifth cousin five times
removed, a get-well card because she has cancer. You don't know her from
Adam, but you're the wifey, and you're supposed to pretend like you know
her and send her gushy get-well wishes. Really, it's expected. Not
inappropriate at all.
About the card--send it. Cancer patients need all the good wishes that
can be mustered, however reluctantly. Really, a card from someone that you
have to think about to place can be a real distraction at a time when you
can use one. (How I know this should be clear without my going into the
gruesome details.) If your husband isn't spontaneously jumping up and
saying "Oh, but I'll do it! It's my family!"--well, then I guess you do
it. It's a pretty small thing.

I'd take the "purebred" animal thing as a real difference between generations.

But the rest are things that you'll need your husband's active, willing
support on. Otherwise you'll wind up looking like the Wicked
Daughter-In-Law, a villainess who somehow got left out of the Grimm
Brothers' work.
--
K. M. Ward
Scheisster
2004-01-05 23:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kathleen Ward
About the card--send it. Cancer patients need all the good wishes that
can be mustered, however reluctantly. Really, a card from someone that you
have to think about to place can be a real distraction at a time when you
can use one. (How I know this should be clear without my going into the
gruesome details.) If your husband isn't spontaneously jumping up and
saying "Oh, but I'll do it! It's my family!"--well, then I guess you do
it. It's a pretty small thing.
She's recovered and well now, but I see your point. Thanks for being
candid.
--
Scheisster
tom c
2004-01-05 23:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scheisster
I'm up to my limit. Suggestions?
--
Scheisster
Move to Las Vegas, it worked for me.

Tom C
PPierce2
2004-01-06 03:56:50 UTC
Permalink
Scheisster,

Some advice from a fellow frustrated CF'er over the helliday/IL issue:

Tolerate some things
Let some things go
Be honest with DH about your thoughts/feelings
Don't put out anymore effort than absolutely minimally necessary
Remember after all they ARE rather far away (I had to keep reminding myself
that once a year is not that bad, once a year is not that bad....)

PPIerce2, glad the hellidays are over
Pete
2004-01-06 07:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by PPierce2
Scheisster,
Tolerate some things
Bullshit. Just say no.
Post by PPierce2
Let some things go
Bullshit. Just say no.

Scheiss, you know what I'd say so I won't repeat...Pete
--
Hell yeah I'd love to make it
But I suck at playing games
I'd rather starve than fake it
For a little taste of fame
Boyd B Boyd A
2004-01-06 13:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Allow me to echo Pete, my mentor in this matter:

Even once a year is entirely too much if you are not enjoying your
holidays because you are caught up in people pleasing or going miles out
of your way to avoid conflict.

Life is SO short. The years do slip away. Is it wise to let people who
have confused love with control steal your time, your efforts, even your
joy...??

Why is what you want of no importance whatsoever to the ones being
appeased?
Doesn't that very fact convey a rather sinister quality to all this
familial attention?

Twenty years from now, might it not seem ridiculous to you that you
spent your wonder years (years of comparative health and energy)
assigning such importance to the opinions of people who don't care
enough about you to take your needs and wishes into consideration? How
much of your personal space will be sufficient sacrifice for
inlaws-relatives?
My personal experience: give an inch......

Belatedly free at last, I would gladly recall/rescind ALL my wasted
"pleasing" time... every single minute spent gritting my teeth and going
through the motions over so many, many decades.

I hope that down the road those that continue to choose accommodation
will not have deep regrets, but it is hard to imagine that won't be the
case.

I continue to have a mild sense of embarrassment about the fact that for
decades I thought the world would implode if I didn't " just go along".
What a surprise......

As is said here frequently "your mileage may vary" and best of luck....
bronxelf
2004-01-06 16:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boyd B Boyd A
Even once a year is entirely too much if you are not enjoying your
holidays because you are caught up in people pleasing or going miles out
of your way to avoid conflict.
Amen. If they make you miserable, just say no. Hang up the phone.
Don't call, don't write, don't drive a fucking centimeter, and if they
cannot respect you in your home, don't invite them, either.
Scheisster
2004-01-07 11:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by bronxelf
Post by Boyd B Boyd A
Even once a year is entirely too much if you are not enjoying your
holidays because you are caught up in people pleasing or going miles out
of your way to avoid conflict.
Amen. If they make you miserable, just say no. Hang up the phone.
Don't call, don't write, don't drive a fucking centimeter, and if they
cannot respect you in your home, don't invite them, either.
Thanks everyone. I've talked until I'm blue in the face. Sometimes I get
apologies--actually they come across as lame explanations, not apologies.
And then I'd think, 'well maybe it's okay now.' But it happens again and
I'm really tired of it. These people don't seem to really, really know
me. They've got an idealized idea of who I am and how I should fit in with
them, and I can't seem to break this image. I would feel guilty for
resisting or being offended, because I'd get also get things like "But we
love you!" I had to mull over the sincerity of that for a few years now,
whether it was a mind game, or was all just for show. Not being sure is
enough to make one snap, because there's the risk of having enemies or
knowing I'd "messed things up" for everyone, or would regret what I'd have
done. I've also heard, "Don't be a baby. You're an adult. Just suck it up
and be quiet. It's just one weekend." etc. I've got my plate full of
other things (who doesn't?) and I'm not in a condition to be worrying about
what people think. I can't be a people-pleaser at all costs. Some people
I know are very good at the whole people-pleasing thing. They don't seem
to mind it. How, I don't really know. I'm just not one of them.
--
Scheisster
bronxelf
2004-01-08 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scheisster
I've also heard, "Don't be a baby. You're an adult. Just suck it up
and be quiet. It's just one weekend." etc. I've got my plate full of
other things (who doesn't?) and I'm not in a condition to be worrying about
what people think. I can't be a people-pleaser at all costs. Some people
I know are very good at the whole people-pleasing thing. They don't seem
to mind it. How, I don't really know. I'm just not one of them.
I sympathize with your situation. I had to deal with something
similar not long ago. I can only tell you from experience, it's best
to just call their bluff. Yes, things will get ugly in the short
term. But in the long term you will easily be able to separate the
wheat from the chaff, and you'll know exactly who was sincere in their
love for you and who was not. You know who all the players are in the
end and what side they're truly on. You can then move forward with a
much greater sense of relief, and a greater willingness to be kind to
those who truly deserve it.

elf.
Just speaking from experience, here.
p***@hotmail.com
2004-01-06 23:35:05 UTC
Permalink
***@webtv.net (Boyd B Boyd A) wrote in message news:<22409-3FFAB845-***@storefull-2334.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
[snip]
Post by Boyd B Boyd A
Even once a year is entirely too much if you are not enjoying your
holidays because you are caught up in people pleasing or going miles out
of your way to avoid conflict.
I think CF Abby answered one much like this not too long ago.
And CF Abby said much what you said, though more forcefully.
Basically, if these people had love for you they would not
be behaving in this manipulative even abusive fashion. They
would take your desires and tastes into account. They would
not be treating you like accessories to their life's wardrobe.
Socks
Whisper
2004-01-07 01:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boyd B Boyd A
Even once a year is entirely too much if you are not enjoying your
holidays because you are caught up in people pleasing or going miles out
of your way to avoid conflict.
Life is SO short. The years do slip away. Is it wise to let people who
have confused love with control steal your time, your efforts, even your
joy...??
Why is what you want of no importance whatsoever to the ones being
appeased?
Doesn't that very fact convey a rather sinister quality to all this
familial attention?
Twenty years from now, might it not seem ridiculous to you that you
spent your wonder years (years of comparative health and energy)
assigning such importance to the opinions of people who don't care
enough about you to take your needs and wishes into consideration? How
much of your personal space will be sufficient sacrifice for
inlaws-relatives?
My personal experience: give an inch......
Belatedly free at last, I would gladly recall/rescind ALL my wasted
"pleasing" time... every single minute spent gritting my teeth and going
through the motions over so many, many decades.
I hope that down the road those that continue to choose accommodation
will not have deep regrets, but it is hard to imagine that won't be the
case.
I continue to have a mild sense of embarrassment about the fact that for
decades I thought the world would implode if I didn't " just go along".
What a surprise......
As is said here frequently "your mileage may vary" and best of luck....
Well said....
stePH
2004-01-08 16:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete
Scheiss, you know what I'd say so I won't repeat...Pete
Kill them and fuck the bodies?


stePH
--
NP: Echolyn, COWBOY POEMS FREE - "Human Lottery"
Orchid
2004-01-06 16:09:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scheisster
"Oh nevermind that so many animals are on death row (in America). We want
our little purebred status symbols. Oh, Himalayans aren't actually
recognized as a 'real" breed yet? That's okay, because we're looking into
an Abyssinian."
Um. Himalayans are a 'real breed'. They're recognised by
pretty much all the major associations.
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.




Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Pete
2004-01-06 16:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.
My my my, aren't we defensive?

You DO have beautiful kitties. If anyone gives you shit over it, you DO
have the choice of the killfile.

Believe me, ITRL, no one cares...Pete
--
Hell yeah I'd love to make it
But I suck at playing games
I'd rather starve than fake it
For a little taste of fame
Caine
2004-01-06 16:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete
Post by Orchid
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.
My my my, aren't we defensive?
You DO have beautiful kitties. If anyone gives you shit over it, you DO
have the choice of the killfile.
Believe me, ITRL, no one cares...Pete
Afuckingmen, and thank you, Pete.

Caine
--
Extra Bitchy (tm) all the time.

Anyone else still in the justational stage? I am 27 weeks and wondering
who else is out there mutating as a host being to a kicky lifeform.-Hipmoo
Orchid
2004-01-06 17:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete
Post by Orchid
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.
My my my, aren't we defensive?
*sigh* Yeah, sorry. Comes from attending a show recently and
having AR people protesting outside. Having people scream 'Cat
Murderer' at you tends to put one in a defensive mood.
And part of it comes from being frustrated with the AR
purebred bingo card -- 'buying a kitten means you killed a shelter
cat', 'people who own purebreds are status-obsessed and don't care
about their pets', 'since you own a purebred, you're going to throw it
away if there are any problems', 'purebred owners are morally
corrupt', and the list goes on and on. After a while you just start
knee-jerking whenever someone bingos.
Post by Pete
You DO have beautiful kitties. If anyone gives you shit over it, you DO
have the choice of the killfile.
Thank you -- I think they're gorgeous myself. I'm not
normally this touchy about it, but the protesters at the last show
were brutal. :(
Post by Pete
Believe me, ITRL, no one cares...Pete
I wish someone would tell the ARs that.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
AndreaS
2004-01-06 23:46:09 UTC
Permalink
"Orchid" wrote:
<snip>
I'm not
Post by Orchid
normally this touchy about it, but the protesters at the last show
were brutal. :(
Ouch. Aren't you in the Seattle area, Orchid? Maybe I'm confused but I
thought you were. I haven't seen any AR protesters at the dog shows, thank
goodness. Wonder if we're just lucky, of if they'll be hitting up the SKC
show in Feb. Hmmm.
--
-Andrea
Orchid
2004-01-07 03:10:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:46:09 GMT, "AndreaS"
Post by AndreaS
<snip>
I'm not
Post by Orchid
normally this touchy about it, but the protesters at the last show
were brutal. :(
Ouch. Aren't you in the Seattle area, Orchid? Maybe I'm confused but I
thought you were. I haven't seen any AR protesters at the dog shows, thank
goodness. Wonder if we're just lucky, of if they'll be hitting up the SKC
show in Feb. Hmmm.
Nope, I'm in the Washington DC area. Last show was in
Baltimore, which is where I ran across those lovely examples of
humanity. :(



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
stePH
2004-01-08 16:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndreaS
<snip>
I'm not
Post by Orchid
normally this touchy about it, but the protesters at the last show
were brutal. :(
Ouch. Aren't you in the Seattle area, Orchid? Maybe I'm confused but I
thought you were. I haven't seen any AR protesters at the dog shows, thank
goodness. Wonder if we're just lucky, of if they'll be hitting up the SKC
show in Feb. Hmmm.
*waves*

Hi, neighbor.

stePH, Everett
--
NP: Echolyn, COWBOY POEMS FREE - "Human Lottery"
AndreaS
2004-01-09 00:05:09 UTC
Permalink
"stePH" <***@earthlink.net> wrote
<snip>
Post by stePH
*waves*
Hi, neighbor.
stePH, Everett
Hey, hey! I think there's a fair number of us here in lovely Western
Washington. Wasn't there talk of a con a while ago..?
--
-Andrea, Sultan a.k.a. East Jabib
stePH
2004-01-09 14:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndreaS
<snip>
Post by stePH
*waves*
Hi, neighbor.
stePH, Everett
Hey, hey! I think there's a fair number of us here in lovely Western
Washington. Wasn't there talk of a con a while ago..?
If there was, I missed it.


stePH
--
Today's waste is tomorrow's overtime.
Sharix
2004-01-06 22:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete
Post by Orchid
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.
My my my, aren't we defensive?
You DO have beautiful kitties. If anyone gives you shit over it, you DO
have the choice of the killfile.
I love cats and, yes, your Bengals, are beautiful. However, I, too sense a
wee bit of defensiveness in your post.
Post by Pete
Believe me, ITRL, no one cares...Pete
--
Hell yeah I'd love to make it
But I suck at playing games
I'd rather starve than fake it
For a little taste of fame
Salome
2004-01-06 16:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Orchid wrote,
Post by Orchid
I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.
Well put. This is exactly why I got Owd Pigg, a purebred Himalayan, 16 years
ago. I'm glad we adopted Mina from the shelter last year, but if and when we
get another cat, I want another Himalayan, 'cause I love the breed.

But Scheisster, I know what you mean about your in-laws. Purebred animals
*are* status symbols for some people, and they can be really fucking
annoying about it. My parents bought an American Eskimo dog because they
decided the breed was "cute," and they never stop talking about how
expensive he was. They've never trained the dog properly, and they think
it's cute that he's a destructive little nutcase. I'm sick of hearing how
he's turned their house upside down for the millionth time. But my parents
are annoying people. It's no surprise that their approach to having a dog is
annoying as well. My solution is to avoid them as much as possible, and the
one advantage to leaving California is that it put 800 miles between them
and me. In 5 years, I've seen them exactly once. (And I've never seen their
poor dog.)

Salome

-------------------------------------------------
Duke: The lights are growing dim. I know a life of crime led me
to this sorry fate. And yet I blame society. Society made me what I am.
Otto: That's bullshit. You're a white suburban punk, just like me.
-- REPO MAN
No kids 4 you
2004-01-07 00:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Salome
My solution is to avoid them as much as possible, and the
one advantage to leaving California is that it put 800 miles between them
and me. In 5 years, I've seen them exactly once.
Salome
I can top that. I've lived in my house for about ten years. My father's wife
(my "mother") has ony been here about twice in that ten years. I only live
about eight miles from them. You don't beed distance to keep them away!
Sharix
2004-01-06 22:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Post by Scheisster
"Oh nevermind that so many animals are on death row (in America). We want
our little purebred status symbols. Oh, Himalayans aren't actually
recognized as a 'real" breed yet? That's okay, because we're looking into
an Abyssinian."
Um. Himalayans are a 'real breed'. They're recognised by
pretty much all the major associations.
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status. Purebreds are more predictable in temperament, and I
adored the temperament of the Bengal breed. Full stop. Adopting a
shelter cat is a wonderful thing, but it wasn't what I was interested
in. Most purebred cats owners don't buy them for a status symbol,
they buy them because they prefer the breed.
If MOST means 51%, then, indeed, 49% DO buy based on status.
Post by Orchid
Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Cori
2004-01-07 03:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Um. Himalayans are a 'real breed'. They're recognised by
pretty much all the major associations.
Plus, some of our Himalayans ARE rescue cats.
(Fourth and final home for the still unnamed new kitty.)

Cori
Scheisster
2004-01-07 07:43:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status.
I didn't want to hurt anyone when I said this. You'd have to know these
people to know why I said that. They've already got one--trust me--status
symbol. Everything they do and buy, is to impress everybody else. The cat
they already have basically wanders the house alone 90% of the time,
ignored. Part of me hopes they'll get another cat just to keep it company.
Me, I would really like to see people helping to solve the cat
overpopulation problem in America, by adopting from shelters and
spaying/neutering their cats. There's not a day that goes by that I am not
so happy to have my own two rescues. I'm always going to feel this way. I
was upset--very upset--over some recent events, so just take my rant with a
grain of salt.
--
Scheisster
Orchid
2004-01-07 20:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scheisster
Post by Orchid
And fuck you and your 'purebred status symbol' and the horse
you rode in on. I have purebred Bengals, and it had *nothing* to do
with status.
I didn't want to hurt anyone when I said this.
Actually, I'd like to apologise for knee-jerking in the way
that I did. I was feeling raw after a weekend of AR nuts loudly
protesting a cat show I was attending with my two boys (they're show
alters). Having people scream 'Cat Murderer' at you tends to put one
in a defensive mood.
Part of it also comes from being frustrated with the AR
purebred bingo card -- 'buying a kitten means you killed a shelter
cat', 'people who own purebreds are status-obsessed and don't care
about their pets', 'since you own a purebred, you're going to throw it
away if there are any problems', 'purebred owners are morally
corrupt', and the list goes on and on. I can't post on any of the cat
groups without people jumping down my throat because I dare to own
purebreds. And gods forbid you try to help people who ask for breed
information. The only appropriate response on the cat groups seems to
be 'Get a shelter cat, you elitest bourgeois pig'.
Post by Scheisster
Me, I would really like to see people helping to solve the cat
overpopulation problem in America, by adopting from shelters and
spaying/neutering their cats. There's not a day that goes by that I am not
so happy to have my own two rescues. I'm always going to feel this way. I
was upset--very upset--over some recent events, so just take my rant with a
grain of salt.
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc) and the kitten would be speutered when you got it
(which many responsible breeders do already) unless it was a show
prospect and the buyer was being actively mentored to start their own
responsible breeding program.
I also think that teaching and enforcing responsibility on the
part of pet OWNERS will do more to help the shelter population than
anything else. Make people realise that it's a lifelong commitment,
and get rid of the idea of disposable pets and we'll see the shelter
population drop like a rock. After all, a mere 6% of the owned cats
in the nation are purebred, and that's only 3.8% of the cat population
as a whole. Roaming, free-breeding cats make up over a third of the
cat population -- IMO, I'd rather go after the larger problem first.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
J.W.T. Meakin
2004-01-08 01:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc)
So what about people like me who actively prefer mogs with no
pedigree and feline personalities that are uniquely their own?

Also, once humans take over the genetic management of a species,
all you ever get is what humans think is desirable. I much prefer
what Nature comes up with.

Bill.
Sheena
2004-01-08 01:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by J.W.T. Meakin
Post by Orchid
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc)
So what about people like me who actively prefer mogs with no
pedigree and feline personalities that are uniquely their own?
Also, once humans take over the genetic management of a species,
all you ever get is what humans think is desirable. I much prefer
what Nature comes up with.
Bill.
Purebred or mongrel, don't they all have personalities that are
"uniquely their own?" I think there's room for all kinds, m'self.
There are pros and cons to both.

It's when people start getting snitty and thinking their way is
the only way that I have a problem, and that's not reserved for
opinions on cats, either.

This "everything my way" attitude that goes around sucks, whether
it's about having kids, politics, pets, city living, cars, or
anything else.

--
Mean People Produce
Little Mean People
Orchid
2004-01-08 05:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by J.W.T. Meakin
Post by Orchid
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc)
So what about people like me who actively prefer mogs with no
pedigree and feline personalities that are uniquely their own?
All a pedigree means is that it is known who the parents (and
grandparents, etc, etc, etc) of a cat were. If it were my perfect
happy world, there wouldn't be any cats in shelters, so if someone
wanted to breed moggies responsibly, more power to them. You'll note
that I didn't specify 'titled all their cats', though moggies *can* be
shown in the Household Pet category where they are judged based on
good temperament, health, etc.
And purebreds have personalities all their own -- personality
is not genetic, though temperament is.
Post by J.W.T. Meakin
Also, once humans take over the genetic management of a species,
all you ever get is what humans think is desirable. I much prefer
what Nature comes up with.
What, like FHD and PKD and all the other diseases that lurk in
the genes of cats? I fed and speutered a colony of barn cats and many
of them suffered from genetic disease that made their short lives even
shorter.
What Nature came up with was Felis sylvestris lybica -- all
the patterns and colours of domestic cats were bred for by humans.
There are no wild tuxedo cats.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Shaarx
2004-01-08 06:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J.W.T. Meakin
Post by Orchid
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc)
So what about people like me who actively prefer mogs with no
pedigree and feline personalities that are uniquely their own?
Also, once humans take over the genetic management of a species,
all you ever get is what humans think is desirable. I much prefer
what Nature comes up with.
Bill.
Precisely. Purebred cats and dogs, with few exceptions, are genetically
weaker than mixed breeds. Period.
REP
2004-01-08 09:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shaarx
Post by J.W.T. Meakin
Post by Orchid
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc)
So what about people like me who actively prefer mogs with no
pedigree and feline personalities that are uniquely their own?
Also, once humans take over the genetic management of a species,
all you ever get is what humans think is desirable. I much prefer
what Nature comes up with.
Bill.
Precisely. Purebred cats and dogs, with few exceptions, are genetically
weaker than mixed breeds. Period.
Nature doesn't come up with nearly-noseless Persians and Siamese with
over-narrow brain cavities, either. I'm a big fan of all cats, though,
and the rescue purebreeds I've lived with have been every bit as
wonderful as the mix-and-match breeds. I'm pleased to report that Tessa,
the Siamese (a Classic, not a freak Modern), shows every sign of having
enough tomcatting ancestors to live a long, healthy life.
--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather
tom c
2004-01-08 05:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
that I did. I was feeling raw after a weekend of AR nuts loudly
protesting a cat show I was attending with my two boys (they're show
alters). Having people scream 'Cat Murderer' at you tends to put one
in a defensive mood.
AR nuts? What are AR nuts (besides nuts)?

Tom C
Virginia
2004-01-08 06:17:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by tom c
Post by Orchid
that I did. I was feeling raw after a weekend of AR nuts loudly
protesting a cat show I was attending with my two boys (they're show
alters). Having people scream 'Cat Murderer' at you tends to put one
in a defensive mood.
AR nuts? What are AR nuts (besides nuts)?
I'm guessing AR = Animal Rights

va :)
Orchid
2004-01-08 14:43:53 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 05:09:29 GMT, "tom c"
Post by tom c
Post by Orchid
that I did. I was feeling raw after a weekend of AR nuts loudly
protesting a cat show I was attending with my two boys (they're show
alters). Having people scream 'Cat Murderer' at you tends to put one
in a defensive mood.
AR nuts? What are AR nuts (besides nuts)?
Sorry -- Animal Rights. :)



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Scheisster
2004-01-08 09:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Actually, I'd like to apologise for knee-jerking in the way
that I did. I was feeling raw after a weekend of AR nuts loudly
protesting a cat show I was attending with my two boys (they're show
alters). Having people scream 'Cat Murderer' at you tends to put one
in a defensive mood.
I can see you were upset and I know what that can do to a person. Thanks,
and thanks for explaining.
--
Scheisster
Winnie
2004-01-08 19:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Well, I guess the only place we differ is requiring all cats
to comes from shelters. My perfect happy world would be one where the
only way to get a cat would be from a responsible breeder (ie, health
tests, pedigree matches, has a sales contract, maintains right of
first refusal, etc) and the kitten would be speutered when you got it
(which many responsible breeders do already) unless it was a show
prospect and the buyer was being actively mentored to start their own
responsible breeding program.
Can't say I agree with that one. The first problem is that cat breeders seem
to charge several hundred dollars for a kitten, which of course is excessive
for a pet. We need to use that money for vets' bills! Secondly, selective
breeding is motivated by looks. I hope that responsible breeders are also
driven by health and temperament, but looks are the driving factor, and the
side effects are not always good. (It's also too shallow for words, IMHO)

I *do* agree with you that in an ideal world, shelters would not exist as
they would not be needed.

Cheers
Winnie, mongrel moggy lover.
Orchid
2004-01-08 19:39:11 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:08:28 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Can't say I agree with that one. The first problem is that cat breeders seem
to charge several hundred dollars for a kitten, which of course is excessive
for a pet. We need to use that money for vets' bills! Secondly, selective
breeding is motivated by looks. I hope that responsible breeders are also
driven by health and temperament, but looks are the driving factor, and the
side effects are not always good. (It's also too shallow for words, IMHO)
Well, in my breed, Bengals, temperament comes first, then
health, then looks. You'll never find a gorgeous show Bengal that
can't be handled (like you can in some other breeds), so I guess I'm
spoiled by that.
The reason pet kittens from responsible breeders cost so much
is that it is *expensive* to do the requisite genetic health testing,
to feed, vaccinate, and care for the kittens and queen properly (pre
and post natal). I know very very few responsible breeders who are
lucky enough to break even on a litter.
I guess the way I see it is that my cats will be a part of my
family for 15+ years. If I am willing to pay a few hundred dollars
for a televison, or on books or video games, then why on earth
wouldn't I be willing to pay that same amount for a member of my
family?
Post by Winnie
I *do* agree with you that in an ideal world, shelters would not exist as
they would not be needed.
But the continued existence of free-roaming and breeding cats
would make that goal impossible. No one who is anti-purebred and
pro-moggy has ever been able to explain to me where our pet cats in 20
years will come from if we ban purebreds and manage to achieve the
stated goal of sterilising all feral colonies and speutering all pets
that leave a shelter.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Winnie
2004-01-08 20:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:08:28 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Can't say I agree with that one. The first problem is that cat breeders seem
to charge several hundred dollars for a kitten, which of course is excessive
for a pet. We need to use that money for vets' bills! Secondly, selective
breeding is motivated by looks. I hope that responsible breeders are also
driven by health and temperament, but looks are the driving factor, and the
side effects are not always good. (It's also too shallow for words, IMHO)
Well, in my breed, Bengals, temperament comes first, then
health, then looks. You'll never find a gorgeous show Bengal that
can't be handled (like you can in some other breeds), so I guess I'm
spoiled by that.
The reason pet kittens from responsible breeders cost so much
is that it is *expensive* to do the requisite genetic health testing,
to feed, vaccinate, and care for the kittens and queen properly (pre
and post natal). I know very very few responsible breeders who are
lucky enough to break even on a litter.
Does that mean that the pedigree breeds need extra care that others don't?
Mongrel moggies seem to do just fine with some TLC and common sense, and of
course vet care when they need it which they seldom seem to do apart from
the routine preventives such as worming and vaccination. In fact, in many
years of happy moggy companionship, I have never had to take a cat to the
vet for illness or injury, and all "my" cats have been sleek and healthy.
Just luck? Or hybrid vigour?
Post by Orchid
I guess the way I see it is that my cats will be a part of my
family for 15+ years. If I am willing to pay a few hundred dollars
for a televison, or on books or video games, then why on earth
wouldn't I be willing to pay that same amount for a member of my
family?
I agree! if it were necessary I would of course have shelled out dosh for
all my cats (all of whom have been rescues, whether adult or kitten when we
found each other). However, if I were to pay a few hundred dollars to a
pedigree breeder, although I accept that they may make no profit, I would
see that as funding a hobby which, *in the main*, places looks above all
else.
Post by Orchid
But the continued existence of free-roaming and breeding cats
would make that goal impossible. No one who is anti-purebred and
pro-moggy has ever been able to explain to me where our pet cats in 20
years will come from if we ban purebreds and manage to achieve the
stated goal of sterilising all feral colonies and speutering all pets
that leave a shelter.
There are two extremes, aren't there? Unlimited free roaming and breeding
cats, or a world where only pedigrees exist and are strictly regulated.
Neither makes sense to me. I suppose a happy balance would be something
along the lines of people who had outdoor cats being responsible enough to
neuter them, and indoor cat owners only breeding where there's a real demand
for kittens, eg lots of wanted ads in the local paper. I have no personal
desire to ban pedigree breeding, although I would like to see some of the
extreme breeds do a VHEMT (VFEMT?) and die out. Just the ones prone to
health problems and genetic defects, like those poor tortured "twisty" cats.
Ugh.

It all comes down to wanting common sense from the human populace - might as
well ask for the moon....

Cheers
Winnie
Beth Cole
2004-01-08 20:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winnie
Does that mean that the pedigree breeds need extra care that others don't?
Mongrel moggies seem to do just fine with some TLC and common sense, and of
course vet care when they need it which they seldom seem to do apart from
the routine preventives such as worming and vaccination. In fact, in many
years of happy moggy companionship, I have never had to take a cat to the
vet for illness or injury, and all "my" cats have been sleek and healthy.
Just luck? Or hybrid vigour?
I would say it is luck.

Every cat I've ever "owned" or been around has needed regular vet care
in some way, beyond the usual shots. Cubbie had a problem with impacted
anal glands. Garfield got into fights that would leave him with sores
at the base of his tail which would require antibiotics, and he had to
be declawed on one front paw due to a severe hyperextension of the
tendons that control the claws (it was that, amputate the entire leg, or
put him down). Midnight had eye problems that required regular checks &
medication (didn't seem to affect is hunting ability, though). Petrie
had chronic sinus issues that necessitated regular med checks for her
steroid prescription.

In the kittens I have raised, it's been worse. Tic had to be put down
because of an inflammation of the spinal cord that caused paralysis of
the back legs. Boots would develop abscesses which had to be drained.
Roseanne Roseannadanna had distemper, which meant she stayed at the vet
for 4 days, but she survived it. Toe & Siam both had digestive problems
that put them in & out of the vet's office for several months of their
respective kittenhoods.

I've never owned a purebred cat. All of them have been moggies. The
only one of the catss mentioned above that wasn't from a single
foundation queen (Cubbie) was Petrie, and she looked like a twin to
Cubbie & Garfield (all yellow tabbies with white throat markings).

Beth
--
"Be bold, be bold, and everywhere be bold." -- Edmund Spenser

our home page: http://www.IsleOfSky.net
Gwenhyffar Milgi
2004-01-09 01:12:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:31:12 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Does that mean that the pedigree breeds need extra care that others don't?
Not particularly. It's the same as the difference between a woman in a
third world country giving birth and a woman in the western world
giving birth. Both are the same process, one is cheapo, with great
risks to both dam and offspring, the other is more expensive and gives
a greater chance of successful survival of both dam and offspring.
Post by Winnie
Mongrel moggies seem to do just fine with some TLC and common sense, and of
course vet care when they need it which they seldom seem to do apart from
the routine preventives such as worming and vaccination. In fact, in many
years of happy moggy companionship, I have never had to take a cat to the
vet for illness or injury, and all "my" cats have been sleek and healthy.
Just luck? Or hybrid vigour?
Nope, in fact in the moggie population, 75% of kittens overall do not
make it beyond one year of age. In the purposebred population,
depending on the breed, that lies between 15 - 30%.
Post by Winnie
There are two extremes, aren't there? Unlimited free roaming and breeding
cats, or a world where only pedigrees exist and are strictly regulated.
Neither makes sense to me. I suppose a happy balance would be something
along the lines of people who had outdoor cats being responsible enough to
neuter them, and indoor cat owners only breeding where there's a real demand
for kittens, eg lots of wanted ads in the local paper. I have no personal
desire to ban pedigree breeding, although I would like to see some of the
extreme breeds do a VHEMT (VFEMT?) and die out. Just the ones prone to
health problems and genetic defects, like those poor tortured "twisty" cats.
Ugh.
Twisty cats are not a breed. They really are not.

I prefer to refer to cats as either random-bred or purpose-bred.
Neither has to do with breed or pedigree. A random-bred cat is the one
that "happens" to fall pregnant, with no knowledge of the sire of the
kittens (or even the sires), and where the owner just lets the cat do
as it wills, and bugger the consequences. A purpose-bred cat is one
where the owner has researched dam/sire, has done health testing,
genetic testing, has chosen an appropriate mate and is willing to put
in the time, effort and money it takes to raise strong, friendly and
well-socialised kittens.

As far as I'm concerned, in the ideal world there would be only
purpose-bred cats.

And yes, breeding cats is a hobby. Cats do perfectly alright without
human intervention, and anyone who claims to breed cats to "preserve a
breed", or "better a breed", or whatever other lofty claims some
breeders come up with, is deluding his/herself. Breeding cats is a
hobby. It is something which brings enjoyment and is done for purely
selfish reasons. Everything else is bunk. (And yes, I'm a catbreeder).


"My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night
but ah my foes and oh my friends -- it gives a lovely light"
Winnie
2004-01-09 01:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:31:12 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Does that mean that the pedigree breeds need extra care that others don't?
Not particularly. It's the same as the difference between a woman in a
third world country giving birth and a woman in the western world
giving birth. Both are the same process, one is cheapo, with great
risks to both dam and offspring, the other is more expensive and gives
a greater chance of successful survival of both dam and offspring.
Not sure I follow that; the level of care given depends on the human
belonging to said cat, not on its breed. I'm referring to the difference
between pet moggies and pedigrees, not between strays/ferals and pedigrees.
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Nope, in fact in the moggie population, 75% of kittens overall do not
make it beyond one year of age. In the purposebred population,
depending on the breed, that lies between 15 - 30%.
What country does this refer to? And I wonder how on earth anyone managed to
work out that statistic?
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Post by Winnie
I have no personal
desire to ban pedigree breeding, although I would like to see some of the
extreme breeds do a VHEMT (VFEMT?) and die out. Just the ones prone to
health problems and genetic defects, like those poor tortured "twisty" cats.
Ugh.
Twisty cats are not a breed. They really are not.
Semantics, surely? They are being bred, deliberately, by humans.
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
I prefer to refer to cats as either random-bred or purpose-bred.
Neither has to do with breed or pedigree. A random-bred cat is the one
that "happens" to fall pregnant, with no knowledge of the sire of the
kittens (or even the sires), and where the owner just lets the cat do
as it wills, and bugger the consequences. A purpose-bred cat is one
where the owner has researched dam/sire, has done health testing,
genetic testing, has chosen an appropriate mate and is willing to put
in the time, effort and money it takes to raise strong, friendly and
well-socialised kittens.
Again, two extremes. There are other scenarios, such as the moggy that is
allowed to have one litter before being spayed, because there aren't many
kittens in the area (it's a good job that happens here, or there wouldn't be
any pet cats at all). There must also be incompetent or negligent pedigree
breeders. And what about the pet shops? Things just aren't that black and
white.
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
As far as I'm concerned, in the ideal world there would be only
purpose-bred cats.
Oh no, I don't like the sound of that at all. Humans playing god yet again,
and we know how well that turns out don't we? :o) Let's face it, humans as
a species can't even get our own house in order WRT breeding, so what on
earth are we doing messing with a species that is so much more advanced than
us? ;o)

Cheers
Winnie
Gwenhyffar Milgi
2004-01-09 11:34:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:49:24 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:31:12 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Does that mean that the pedigree breeds need extra care that others
don't?
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Not particularly. It's the same as the difference between a woman in a
third world country giving birth and a woman in the western world
giving birth. Both are the same process, one is cheapo, with great
risks to both dam and offspring, the other is more expensive and gives
a greater chance of successful survival of both dam and offspring.
Not sure I follow that; the level of care given depends on the human
belonging to said cat, not on its breed. I'm referring to the difference
between pet moggies and pedigrees, not between strays/ferals and pedigrees.
Generally speaking, the pedigree owner/breeder is more willing to
spend money on the reproducing female than the pet moggy owner is.
Post by Winnie
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Nope, in fact in the moggie population, 75% of kittens overall do not
make it beyond one year of age. In the purposebred population,
depending on the breed, that lies between 15 - 30%.
What country does this refer to? And I wonder how on earth anyone managed to
work out that statistic?
It's an accumulated statistic. Can't for the life of me think which
group was collecting them now, but it's a group in one of the cities
in the UK that starts with a P. They also collect statistics on the
average lifespans of cats. Darn, it's an animal welfare group, and the
name of the city is on the tip of my tongue. They've been collecting
data for a few years now.
Post by Winnie
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Post by Winnie
I have no personal
desire to ban pedigree breeding, although I would like to see some of the
extreme breeds do a VHEMT (VFEMT?) and die out. Just the ones prone to
health problems and genetic defects, like those poor tortured "twisty"
cats.
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Post by Winnie
Ugh.
Twisty cats are not a breed. They really are not.
Semantics, surely? They are being bred, deliberately, by humans.
Eh no, they are being bred, deliberately, by one or two sick fucks.
Post by Winnie
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
I prefer to refer to cats as either random-bred or purpose-bred.
Neither has to do with breed or pedigree. A random-bred cat is the one
that "happens" to fall pregnant, with no knowledge of the sire of the
kittens (or even the sires), and where the owner just lets the cat do
as it wills, and bugger the consequences. A purpose-bred cat is one
where the owner has researched dam/sire, has done health testing,
genetic testing, has chosen an appropriate mate and is willing to put
in the time, effort and money it takes to raise strong, friendly and
well-socialised kittens.
Again, two extremes. There are other scenarios, such as the moggy that is
allowed to have one litter before being spayed, because there aren't many
kittens in the area (it's a good job that happens here, or there wouldn't be
any pet cats at all). There must also be incompetent or negligent pedigree
breeders. And what about the pet shops? Things just aren't that black and
white.
A moggy that is allowed to have one litter, is breeding on purpose.
I.e., purpose-bred.

There are incompetent or negligent people in all walks of life,
including cat breeders.

Pet shops. Dunno, don't frequent them, and all registering
organisations in Europe have a clause in their rules that you are not
allowed to sell kittens of any kinds to or through a pet shop.
Post by Winnie
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
As far as I'm concerned, in the ideal world there would be only
purpose-bred cats.
Oh no, I don't like the sound of that at all. Humans playing god yet again,
and we know how well that turns out don't we? :o) Let's face it, humans as
a species can't even get our own house in order WRT breeding, so what on
earth are we doing messing with a species that is so much more advanced than
us? ;o)
Like I said, the only thing that matters is the word _purpose_. I.e.,
the human allowing the feline to have a litter has a sound knowledge
of animal husbandry, is up to speed in health issues in felines in
general and his/her cats in particular, and is willing to expend the
time and money needed to do it properly.

"My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night
but ah my foes and oh my friends -- it gives a lovely light"
Winnie
2004-01-09 19:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
Like I said, the only thing that matters is the word _purpose_. I.e.,
the human allowing the feline to have a litter has a sound knowledge
of animal husbandry, is up to speed in health issues in felines in
general and his/her cats in particular, and is willing to expend the
time and money needed to do it properly.
Well, that sums it up nicely just there. Thank you Gwenhyffar :o)

Cheers
Winnie
J.W.T. Meakin
2004-01-10 02:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
It's an accumulated statistic. Can't for the life of me think which
group was collecting them now, but it's a group in one of the cities
in the UK that starts with a P. They also collect statistics on the
average lifespans of cats. Darn, it's an animal welfare group, and the
name of the city is on the tip of my tongue. They've been collecting
data for a few years now.
Portsmouth? Bill.
Gwenhyffar Milgi
2004-01-10 11:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by J.W.T. Meakin
Post by Gwenhyffar Milgi
It's an accumulated statistic. Can't for the life of me think which
group was collecting them now, but it's a group in one of the cities
in the UK that starts with a P. They also collect statistics on the
average lifespans of cats. Darn, it's an animal welfare group, and the
name of the city is on the tip of my tongue. They've been collecting
data for a few years now.
Portsmouth? Bill.
GAH, fingerfart. That should have been in the US. And I have this
vague recollection that it was Phoenix!

"My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night
but ah my foes and oh my friends -- it gives a lovely light"
Veronique
2004-01-09 00:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:08:28 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
I *do* agree with you that in an ideal world, shelters would not exist as
they would not be needed.
But the continued existence of free-roaming and breeding cats
would make that goal impossible. No one who is anti-purebred and
pro-moggy has ever been able to explain to me where our pet cats in 20
years will come from if we ban purebreds and manage to achieve the
stated goal of sterilising all feral colonies and speutering all pets
that leave a shelter.
But isn't that a bit like saying if no one breeds, the human
population will die out? Unlikely as a real world exercise.

V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
No 33 Secretary
2004-01-09 00:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Veronique
Post by Orchid
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:08:28 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
I *do* agree with you that in an ideal world, shelters would not
exist as they would not be needed.
But the continued existence of free-roaming and breeding cats
would make that goal impossible. No one who is anti-purebred and
pro-moggy has ever been able to explain to me where our pet cats in
20 years will come from if we ban purebreds and manage to achieve the
stated goal of sterilising all feral colonies and speutering all pets
that leave a shelter.
But isn't that a bit like saying if no one breeds, the human
population will die out? Unlikely as a real world exercise.
In the case of pets, I believe it is a matter of money. If there are no
strays, and amateurs cannot get pets still able to breed, then the only way
to get a pet is to buy one. And that would be a *very* lucrative market.
--
Terry Austin
***@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
Omixochitl
2004-01-09 01:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
But the continued existence of free-roaming and breeding cats
would make that goal impossible. No one who is anti-purebred and
pro-moggy has ever been able to explain to me where our pet cats in 20
years will come from if we ban purebreds and manage to achieve the
stated goal of sterilising all feral colonies and speutering all pets
that leave a shelter.
Don't some people disapprove of cat breeders not because they want everyone
to go to shelters for cats instead but because purebreds end up with double
copies of recessive genes for diseases more often than moggies do?

So...if we ban purebreds and sterilize all feral colonies and speuter all
ex-shelter cats, technically speaking we could still have a source of pet
cats in 20 years: cat breeders who know about hybrid vigor. Take a couple
of purebreds from different breeds, breed *them* together, and voilá: a
non-purebred, non-feral, non-ex-shelter kitten litter. =^.^=
AndreaS
2004-01-09 11:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Omixochitl
So...if we ban purebreds and sterilize all feral colonies and speuter all
ex-shelter cats, technically speaking we could still have a source of pet
cats in 20 years: cat breeders who know about hybrid vigor. Take a couple
of purebreds from different breeds, breed *them* together, and voilá: a
non-purebred, non-feral, non-ex-shelter kitten litter.
With all the same diseases seen in the purebreds used as foundation stock.
It's a misunderstanding that hybrid vigor works for something as generalized
as "health" in pet animals. It is usually used in agriculture in reference
to very specific, quantifiable traits, such as strength or growth to market
weight. Also, some diseases are poly-gentic, dominant and incomplete
penetrant. It's not all that simple. Also consider that most animals in
agriculture are not expected to live 15+ years.

I was going to include an example here to illustrate but I snipped it,
figuring it would seem pedantic or tiresome.

If you breed /any/ closed population, recessives will out themselves, not to
mention the sominant, incomplete penetrant and poly-genetic ones, etc. Heck,
you're going to have some animals with health problems no matter what you
do. Responsible breeders screen for disease /before breeding/ and remove bad
risk animals from their program, thus trying to stack the deck in the
offspring's favor. There's such thing as in-breeding depression and genetic
drift that is "cured" by cross breeding but that is generally not the
problem with purebred pets AFAIK. At the moment, anyway.

It's not a purebred vs mixed breed problem, really. It's a human problem. If
pet animals were only bred by people willing to do so responsibly whether
they be purebred or crossbred, and if owners didn't dump their pets there
would be a lot less of them in the shelters being killed.
--
-Andrea
Michelle in WA state
2004-01-11 17:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Omixochitl
So...if we ban purebreds and sterilize all feral colonies and speuter all
ex-shelter cats, technically speaking we could still have a source of pet
cats
Well, here in the US anyway, the trick lies in *getting* anywhere near the
point of needing to worry about whether we're going to find ourselves
without a source of pet cats.

It would be a wonderful thing for THAT to be our cat population crisis.

Meanwhile, if the General Public placed the slightest importance on the
lives (or suffering) of animals, there would be NO socially acceptable
justification for anyone contributing their little bit to the numbers
killed. Breeders pretending that, were it not for their selfless efforts,
the domestic cat would be at risk of vanishing from the face of the earth
would are just playing a variation of IDWIYO.

Oh, and news flash for breeders: it doesn't MATTER if you turn a profit
contributing to pet overpopulation. The cat killed at your county shelter
(because no one wanted an adult cat when there were *kittens* available)
could honestly care less whether you have enough hobby expenses to offset
whatever you charge for the kitten that got that precious home that *she*
didn't get.

-- Michelle

Please, Don't Breed or Buy While Shelter Pets Die.
Orchid
2004-01-11 21:13:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:51:28 GMT, Michelle in WA state
Post by Michelle in WA state
Meanwhile, if the General Public placed the slightest importance on the
lives (or suffering) of animals, there would be NO socially acceptable
justification for anyone contributing their little bit to the numbers
killed. Breeders pretending that, were it not for their selfless efforts,
the domestic cat would be at risk of vanishing from the face of the earth
would are just playing a variation of IDWIYO.
I'm not a breeder -- just an educated, involved pet owner. A
responsible breeder doesn't contribute to the numbers killed because
every cat that they produce is under the protection of a contract that
requires the cat to go back to them if the owners find themselves
unable to keep it for any reason. The cats aren't going into the
shelters and taking up the space there.
Post by Michelle in WA state
Oh, and news flash for breeders: it doesn't MATTER if you turn a profit
contributing to pet overpopulation. The cat killed at your county shelter
(because no one wanted an adult cat when there were *kittens* available)
could honestly care less whether you have enough hobby expenses to offset
whatever you charge for the kitten that got that precious home that *she*
didn't get.
Home for purebred != home for shelter moggie. I didn't *want*
a shelter moggie. I wanted a Bengal because of their temperament and
their health, and then because of their incredible wild looks. I
wanted a responsibly bred Bengal because I like knowing the medical
history for five generations back, I like knowing that the kittens got
the best possible start in life food and health care-wise, I like
knowing that they got the necessary socialisation during the critical
periods in their early life. I like that my boys were socialised to
grooming and claw-clipping at an early age so these procedures are no
big deal to them.
I looked at rescue Bengals -- I wanted two males.
Fortunately, there are very few Bengals in rescue at any given time,
but that meant that finding two boys that didn't want to be only cats
that could be shipped to Virginia (if necessary) was extremely
difficult.

I didn't kill shelter cats because I bought my boys. If my
only choice was the shelter, I probably wouldn't have gotten cats.




Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
I***@bluemooncafe.com
2004-01-12 04:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Home for purebred != home for shelter moggie. I didn't *want*
a shelter moggie. I wanted a Bengal because of their temperament and
their health, and then because of their incredible wild looks. I
wanted a responsibly bred Bengal because I like knowing the medical
history for five generations back, I like knowing that the kittens got
the best possible start in life food and health care-wise, I like
knowing that they got the necessary socialisation during the critical
periods in their early life. I like that my boys were socialised to
grooming and claw-clipping at an early age so these procedures are no
big deal to them.
I looked at rescue Bengals -- I wanted two males.
Fortunately, there are very few Bengals in rescue at any given time,
but that meant that finding two boys that didn't want to be only cats
that could be shipped to Virginia (if necessary) was extremely
difficult.
I didn't kill shelter cats because I bought my boys. If my
only choice was the shelter, I probably wouldn't have gotten cats.
It's too bad you are so down on shelter cats. If it's true you never would
adopt one, then no home lost there for a shelter cat that is waiting for
someone to love them, I suppose.

When I look at my shelter-adopted cats sleeping in a patch of sunshine, or
they jump onto the bed with me at night and curl up next to me, I know
there's no reason why a "purebred" cat with its known medical history and
it's best possible start in life, could bring any more love into my life
than these cats do.
HarX
2004-01-12 06:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by I***@bluemooncafe.com
Post by Orchid
Home for purebred != home for shelter moggie. I didn't *want*
a shelter moggie. I wanted a Bengal because of their temperament and
their health, and then because of their incredible wild looks. I
wanted a responsibly bred Bengal because I like knowing the medical
history for five generations back, I like knowing that the kittens got
the best possible start in life food and health care-wise, I like
knowing that they got the necessary socialisation during the critical
periods in their early life. I like that my boys were socialised to
grooming and claw-clipping at an early age so these procedures are no
big deal to them.
I looked at rescue Bengals -- I wanted two males.
Fortunately, there are very few Bengals in rescue at any given time,
but that meant that finding two boys that didn't want to be only cats
that could be shipped to Virginia (if necessary) was extremely
difficult.
I didn't kill shelter cats because I bought my boys. If my
only choice was the shelter, I probably wouldn't have gotten cats.
It's too bad you are so down on shelter cats. If it's true you never would
adopt one, then no home lost there for a shelter cat that is waiting for
someone to love them, I suppose.
When I look at my shelter-adopted cats sleeping in a patch of sunshine, or
they jump onto the bed with me at night and curl up next to me, I know
there's no reason why a "purebred" cat with its known medical history and
it's best possible start in life, could bring any more love into my life
than these cats do.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Beth Cole
2004-01-12 05:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
I didn't kill shelter cats because I bought my boys. If my
only choice was the shelter, I probably wouldn't have gotten cats.
That is the point I am at.

I've had strays & rescues my entire life, generally kittens that show up
on the back stoop needing a home. My dad still purpose-breeds working
vermin-killing cats (NOT pets). I'm not interested in either one.

If I ever get a kitten, as opposed to an adult cat, it will be a
purebred on a speuter contract. I want a known quantity, because I want
a specific physical-type cat. There are several breeds which fit that
physical type. I am tired of the genetic crapshoot that comes along
with the kittens of indeterminate origin.

My other option, which is cheaper, is to go to a shelter and get an
adult cat of the physical type that I want. However, I'm still stuck
with the genetic crapshoot of indeterminate origins. I don't know up
front what the health problems of the foundation stock tend to be.

One of life's little ironies ... some of the people I know personally
who are most most opposed to purebred breeding of cats are also the ones
who insist on, and applaud the breeding of, purebred dogs. Why is my
buying a purebred cat any different from her buying a Chihuahua?

Beth
tom c
2004-01-12 05:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beth Cole
. Why is my
buying a purebred cat any different from her buying a Chihuahua?
Beth
The cat won't were a beret and always drops its chalupa in the litter box...

Tom C
HarX
2004-01-12 06:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beth Cole
Post by Orchid
I didn't kill shelter cats because I bought my boys. If my
only choice was the shelter, I probably wouldn't have gotten cats.
That is the point I am at.
I've had strays & rescues my entire life, generally kittens that show up
on the back stoop needing a home. My dad still purpose-breeds working
vermin-killing cats (NOT pets). I'm not interested in either one.
If I ever get a kitten, as opposed to an adult cat, it will be a
purebred on a speuter contract. I want a known quantity, because I want
a specific physical-type cat. There are several breeds which fit that
physical type. I am tired of the genetic crapshoot that comes along
with the kittens of indeterminate origin.
My other option, which is cheaper, is to go to a shelter and get an
adult cat of the physical type that I want. However, I'm still stuck
with the genetic crapshoot of indeterminate origins. I don't know up
front what the health problems of the foundation stock tend to be.
One of life's little ironies ... some of the people I know personally
who are most most opposed to purebred breeding of cats are also the ones
who insist on, and applaud the breeding of, purebred dogs. Why is my
buying a purebred cat any different from her buying a Chihuahua?
Beth
It's not. It is hypocritical and nonsensical to insist on purebred cats OR
dogs. Are the people who insist on purebred animals purebred THEMSELVES? I
thought not.
naomi
2004-01-12 08:21:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:09:49 -0600, Beth Cole
Post by Beth Cole
One of life's little ironies ... some of the people I know personally
who are most most opposed to purebred breeding of cats are also the ones
who insist on, and applaud the breeding of, purebred dogs. Why is my
buying a purebred cat any different from her buying a Chihuahua?
I'm not sure exactly why it's different - but I guess it is kinda
different for me. I'm not as extreme as your example - I think there's
obviously a niche for purebred cats so I'm not out to condemn all cat
breeders, but I'll never buy a purebred cat as long as I can still get
a shelter cat. OTOH, I'm not much of a dog person and I don't applaud
the breeding of purebred dogs per se, but if I ever were to get a dog
(not bloody likely), I'd want a purebred so I'd know what I was
getting into and whether I could provide the dog with the things it
needed. I'd feel like an irresponsible dog owner otherwise. Maybe it's
a cat person versus dog person thing, or maybe it's that dog breeds
are far more radically different than cat breeds in terms of their
needs and abilities.

My feelings on the whole breeding issue are pretty much the same as my
views on people-breeding: ideally, every cat, dog, or child should be
wanted and planned for, and its caregivers make a lifelong commitment.
No need for foster homes, animal shelters, etc. I don't think there's
a reasonable way to enforce my ideal world, but it's about as close as
I can get to summing up how I feel.

Naomi
Terry Castle
2004-01-12 15:13:36 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:21:34 GMT, naomi
Post by naomi
I'm not sure exactly why it's different - but I guess it is kinda
different for me. I'm not as extreme as your example - I think there's
obviously a niche for purebred cats so I'm not out to condemn all cat
breeders, but I'll never buy a purebred cat as long as I can still get
a shelter cat. OTOH, I'm not much of a dog person and I don't applaud
the breeding of purebred dogs per se, but if I ever were to get a dog
(not bloody likely), I'd want a purebred so I'd know what I was
getting into and whether I could provide the dog with the things it
needed. I'd feel like an irresponsible dog owner otherwise. Maybe it's
a cat person versus dog person thing, or maybe it's that dog breeds
are far more radically different than cat breeds in terms of their
needs and abilities.
Not being a dog person, but liking cats, can dog people answer this
question? There seems to be quite a lot about various dog breed and
the associated temperments. Not so much about cat breeds, although
some, including some joking speculation based on coat color. Is it
that dog breeds were bred more directly for temperament than cat
breeds? Or is just more attention spent on speculating on the
temperment of something with bigger teeth?
Orchid
2004-01-12 17:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Castle
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:21:34 GMT, naomi
Post by naomi
I'm not sure exactly why it's different - but I guess it is kinda
different for me. I'm not as extreme as your example - I think there's
obviously a niche for purebred cats so I'm not out to condemn all cat
breeders, but I'll never buy a purebred cat as long as I can still get
a shelter cat. OTOH, I'm not much of a dog person and I don't applaud
the breeding of purebred dogs per se, but if I ever were to get a dog
(not bloody likely), I'd want a purebred so I'd know what I was
getting into and whether I could provide the dog with the things it
needed. I'd feel like an irresponsible dog owner otherwise. Maybe it's
a cat person versus dog person thing, or maybe it's that dog breeds
are far more radically different than cat breeds in terms of their
needs and abilities.
Not being a dog person, but liking cats, can dog people answer this
question? There seems to be quite a lot about various dog breed and
the associated temperments. Not so much about cat breeds, although
some, including some joking speculation based on coat color. Is it
that dog breeds were bred more directly for temperament than cat
breeds? Or is just more attention spent on speculating on the
temperment of something with bigger teeth?
Being a cat person *and* a dog person, I can answer this
pretty handily. :) Cats and dogs were domesticated in *totally*
different ways.
Dogs were domesticated to be working partners, and so each
breed had a specific job to be done that they were bred for. This is
where the different AKC groups come from -- dogs are grouped together
that were bred for the same loose sort of work. The Herding group
herded or protected livestock, the Sporting group hunted, the Terriers
went underground after vermin. Each of these jobs require a different
sort of temperament, and so that became extremely important and thus
bred for. Color and pattern breeding came *after* conformation and
temperament.
Cats, however, were never really bred for specific
temperament. Cats followed the rodents to the grain warehouses, and
humans said, "Hey, cool, that little animal is killing the rodents
eating our food". They then occasionally fed the more friendly and/or
unusually marked cats, which gave those cats an advantage, so more of
them bred more successfully. More purposeful breeding (a la the world
of cat shows) didn't really start until the late 1800's (the first
American cat show happened in 1881), and colour and coat was
emphasised over temperament.
Modern purpose-bred cats however are, in essence, being
re-domesticated as temperament begins to be a part of breed standards
and something very desirable. This trend began with the Bengal cat,
as breeders realised that they had to be extremely careful about
temperament because of the injection of wild blood into the domestic
species. However, many other breeds hopped onto the bandwagon after
seeing what it did for the Bengals. Now, the majority of breed
standards include a description of proper temperament.
I think that in 50 years or so, we'll see that the majority of
purpose-bred cats will have fantastic, affectionate temperaments.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
HarX
2004-01-13 09:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Post by Terry Castle
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:21:34 GMT, naomi
Post by naomi
I'm not sure exactly why it's different - but I guess it is kinda
different for me. I'm not as extreme as your example - I think there's
obviously a niche for purebred cats so I'm not out to condemn all cat
breeders, but I'll never buy a purebred cat as long as I can still get
a shelter cat. OTOH, I'm not much of a dog person and I don't applaud
the breeding of purebred dogs per se, but if I ever were to get a dog
(not bloody likely), I'd want a purebred so I'd know what I was
getting into and whether I could provide the dog with the things it
needed. I'd feel like an irresponsible dog owner otherwise. Maybe it's
a cat person versus dog person thing, or maybe it's that dog breeds
are far more radically different than cat breeds in terms of their
needs and abilities.
Not being a dog person, but liking cats, can dog people answer this
question? There seems to be quite a lot about various dog breed and
the associated temperments. Not so much about cat breeds, although
some, including some joking speculation based on coat color. Is it
that dog breeds were bred more directly for temperament than cat
breeds? Or is just more attention spent on speculating on the
temperment of something with bigger teeth?
Being a cat person *and* a dog person, I can answer this
pretty handily. :) Cats and dogs were domesticated in *totally*
different ways.
Dogs were domesticated to be working partners, and so each
breed had a specific job to be done that they were bred for. This is
where the different AKC groups come from -- dogs are grouped together
that were bred for the same loose sort of work. The Herding group
herded or protected livestock, the Sporting group hunted, the Terriers
went underground after vermin. Each of these jobs require a different
sort of temperament, and so that became extremely important and thus
bred for. Color and pattern breeding came *after* conformation and
temperament.
Cats, however, were never really bred for specific
temperament. Cats followed the rodents to the grain warehouses, and
humans said, "Hey, cool, that little animal is killing the rodents
eating our food". They then occasionally fed the more friendly and/or
unusually marked cats, which gave those cats an advantage, so more of
them bred more successfully. More purposeful breeding (a la the world
of cat shows) didn't really start until the late 1800's (the first
American cat show happened in 1881), and colour and coat was
emphasised over temperament.
Modern purpose-bred cats however are, in essence, being
re-domesticated as temperament begins to be a part of breed standards
and something very desirable. This trend began with the Bengal cat,
as breeders realised that they had to be extremely careful about
temperament because of the injection of wild blood into the domestic
species. However, many other breeds hopped onto the bandwagon after
seeing what it did for the Bengals. Now, the majority of breed
standards include a description of proper temperament.
I think that in 50 years or so, we'll see that the majority of
purpose-bred cats will have fantastic, affectionate temperaments.
My DSH and DMH *ALREADY* have fantastic, affectionate temperaments.
Post by Orchid
Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Ryenna
2004-01-12 17:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Castle
Not being a dog person, but liking cats, can dog people answer this
question? There seems to be quite a lot about various dog breed and
the associated temperments. Not so much about cat breeds, although
some, including some joking speculation based on coat color.
I dunno, I can think of three breeds of cats of the top of my head that have
definite personality traits associated with them:
Bengals, Siamese, and Maine Coons.

A book we've got at the library I work at profiles not only cat breed size and
maintinence level, but also temperament and behaviour. Ratings are given for
what sort of space they need, how loud they are, how well they do with other
animals, other cats, etc. And it's different for every breed.

-Ry
--
"Treat me good, I'll treat you better -
treat me bad, I'll treat you worse"
- Blue Blaze Irregular motto
Beth Cole
2004-01-12 17:44:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryenna
Post by Terry Castle
Not being a dog person, but liking cats, can dog people answer this
question? There seems to be quite a lot about various dog breed and
the associated temperments. Not so much about cat breeds, although
some, including some joking speculation based on coat color.
I dunno, I can think of three breeds of cats of the top of my head that have
Bengals, Siamese, and Maine Coons.
I'll add Ragdolls to that, too. I adore them, but my husband thinks
they are born brain-damaged because of how ... relaxed they are.
Post by Ryenna
A book we've got at the library I work at profiles not only cat breed size and
maintinence level, but also temperament and behaviour. Ratings are given for
what sort of space they need, how loud they are, how well they do with other
animals, other cats, etc. And it's different for every breed.
Yep. Adherance to breed standard for temperament is one of the things I
will look for when I get a cat, once we're in a house we own.

Beth
--
"Be bold, be bold, and everywhere be bold." -- Edmund Spenser

our home page: http://www.IsleOfSky.net
HarX
2004-01-13 09:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beth Cole
Post by Ryenna
Post by Terry Castle
Not being a dog person, but liking cats, can dog people answer this
question? There seems to be quite a lot about various dog breed and
the associated temperments. Not so much about cat breeds, although
some, including some joking speculation based on coat color.
I dunno, I can think of three breeds of cats of the top of my head that have
Bengals, Siamese, and Maine Coons.
I'll add Ragdolls to that, too. I adore them, but my husband thinks
they are born brain-damaged because of how ... relaxed they are.
Post by Ryenna
A book we've got at the library I work at profiles not only cat breed size and
maintinence level, but also temperament and behaviour. Ratings are given for
what sort of space they need, how loud they are, how well they do with other
animals, other cats, etc. And it's different for every breed.
Yep. Adherance to breed standard for temperament is one of the things I
will look for when I get a cat, once we're in a house we own.
Beth
Sounds like you are very yuppified.
Post by Beth Cole
--
"Be bold, be bold, and everywhere be bold." -- Edmund Spenser
our home page: http://www.IsleOfSky.net
Michelle in WA state
2004-01-15 07:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryenna
And it's different for every breed.
And not especially reliable.

I ought to know. At the moment I live with 6 purebred Siamese, 5
blue-eyed mixed breed cats, and 5 mixed breed cats who don't have enough
Siamese in them to have blue eyes. And I've rescued and placed a whole lot
more cats than that, many of them Siamese or Siamese mixes.

If you want a cat with specific personality traits, adopt an ADULT cat from
a rescue where they actually pay attention to the different cats'
personalities.

Personality-wise, yeah, there are some breed *probability* correlations...
but there are NO guarantees. A kitten is almost as much of a crapshoot as
a baby, in terms of where it will fall, once grown, on its species'
spectrum for any given personality trait.

The biggest difference, of course, being that from the ages of 0 to at
*least* 20, the worst feline is infinitely better company than the best
human.

-- Michelle

Save a homeless Siamese! Photos & detailed info on kitties
available to adopt: http://shorterlink.com/?RU68TV

Homelessness should NOT be a capital offense!
The humane answer for feral cats is Trap-Neuter-Release
Visit http://www.feralcat.com and http://shorterlink.com/?TT8J7R
Scarx
2004-01-16 23:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle in WA state
Post by Ryenna
And it's different for every breed.
And not especially reliable.
I ought to know. At the moment I live with 6 purebred Siamese, 5
blue-eyed mixed breed cats, and 5 mixed breed cats who don't have enough
Siamese in them to have blue eyes. And I've rescued and placed a whole lot
more cats than that, many of them Siamese or Siamese mixes.
If you want a cat with specific personality traits, adopt an ADULT cat from
a rescue where they actually pay attention to the different cats'
personalities.
Personality-wise, yeah, there are some breed *probability* correlations...
but there are NO guarantees. A kitten is almost as much of a crapshoot as
a baby, in terms of where it will fall, once grown, on its species'
spectrum for any given personality trait.
The biggest difference, of course, being that from the ages of 0 to at
*least* 20, the worst feline is infinitely better company than the best
human.
-- Michelle
Great post, Michelle. I can't imagine living with some of the arrogant
yuppies in this ng.
Post by Michelle in WA state
Save a homeless Siamese! Photos & detailed info on kitties
available to adopt: http://shorterlink.com/?RU68TV
Homelessness should NOT be a capital offense!
The humane answer for feral cats is Trap-Neuter-Release
Visit http://www.feralcat.com and http://shorterlink.com/?TT8J7R
No kids 4 you
2004-01-09 01:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winnie
Can't say I agree with that one. The first problem is that cat breeders seem
to charge several hundred dollars for a kitten, which of course is excessive
for a pet. We need to use that money for vets' bills! Secondly, selective
breeding is motivated by looks. I hope that responsible breeders are also
driven by health and temperament, but looks are the driving factor, and the
side effects are not always good. (It's also too shallow for words, IMHO)
Cheers
Winnie, mongrel moggy lover.
As a former Burmese owner and a current owner of three cats (a Siamese
(traditional), a shelter cat and a rescue) I can safely say that there is no
price to high for a pet. I say that even though the only cat I paid for was
the shelter cat. The others were given to me.

The price of a pure breed may be more because it costs money to run a decent
cattery. Food, shots, litter, all that crap is expensive. Not all cat
breeders are nasty. Neither of my blue bloods is considered 'perfect' by show
standards. Their breeders were looking for temperment as well as physical
features and health.




Don't poo poo all of them.
Winnie
2004-01-09 01:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by No kids 4 you
As a former Burmese owner and a current owner of three cats (a Siamese
(traditional), a shelter cat and a rescue) I can safely say that there is no
price to high for a pet.
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say, $1000
is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should someone who is
responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're not rolling in ready
cash?
Post by No kids 4 you
I say that even though the only cat I paid for was
the shelter cat. The others were given to me.
As far as I can recall I've paid:
For one dog, one crate of beer at adoption then squillions later on in vets'
fees.
For one kitten, half balinese, all tart, $50.
The rest, nothing. They were all priceless to me.
Post by No kids 4 you
The price of a pure breed may be more because it costs money to run a decent
cattery. Food, shots, litter, all that crap is expensive.
So why should only pedigree cats get those things? And, in fact, do they?
Post by No kids 4 you
Not all cat
breeders are nasty.
The ones I've met have been lovely, clearly only doing it because they adore
the company of cats.
Post by No kids 4 you
Neither of my blue bloods is considered 'perfect' by show
standards. Their breeders were looking for temperment as well as physical
features and health.
Don't poo poo all of them.
I wasn't poo pooing anyone, just saying that in an ideal world there would
be a balance between the two extremes of surplus accidental moggies vs
exclusively pedigree cats. Obvious really.

Cheers
Winnie
Renee
2004-01-09 04:52:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:57:24 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Post by No kids 4 you
As a former Burmese owner and a current owner of three cats (a Siamese
(traditional), a shelter cat and a rescue) I can safely say that there is
no
Post by No kids 4 you
price to high for a pet.
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say, $1000
is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should someone who is
responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're not rolling in ready
cash?
Here I am with devil's advocate again!

Why do you think "you're" entitled to a cat? Why should someone who's
responsible and employed, and rilly rilly needs a car be denied one
(and yes, I typed *car*) because they're not rolling in dough?

This group is all over human breeders for popping out sproggen
willy-nilly (and correctly so, IMO). We bitch that people with
hereditary diseases reproduce. And yet some others of us are
supportive of someone who wants to "let their cat have kittens before
spaying because there aren't many kittens in the area" (Dear lord,
there are SO many things wrong with that sentence), regardless of the
"quality" of the cat in question (by which I mean health - which
probably can't be accurately determined if the breeding is early
enough that it's before spaying - and temperament.)

It's my opinion that cats aren't a commodity. But hey, that's just me.
Post by Winnie
Post by No kids 4 you
The price of a pure breed may be more because it costs money to run a
decent
Post by No kids 4 you
cattery. Food, shots, litter, all that crap is expensive.
So why should only pedigree cats get those things? And, in fact, do they?
The average moggie owner who plans to breed Fluffy to Max, is NOT
going to do genetic testing to ensure that there are no hereditary
conditions to be passed on. They probably aren't going to do pre- and
peri-***@tal vet checking. Most - and I stand by MOST - will put Fluffy
and Max in a room together, and wait for the screeching to stop. If
that - they may just let 'em go at it in the back yard.

Plus, I'd tend to say - and Gwynheffar may correct me - that the
average moggie owner-breeder is like the average parunt. Their cat is
particularly lovely and charming and personable and would make a great
Mommy/Daddy. Whereas a "purpose-bred" (or purebred) breeder is likely
to NOT breed a cat who has an *objectively* inadequate temperament or
physical set of traits. They may love their cats just as much, but
they *don't* overlook the fact that she has that little "issue" that's
part of her charm.

Renee
"Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow Children.'" -Peter Griffin
Caine
2004-01-09 04:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renee
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:57:24 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Post by No kids 4 you
As a former Burmese owner and a current owner of three cats (a
Siamese (traditional), a shelter cat and a rescue) I can safely say
that there is
no
Post by No kids 4 you
price to high for a pet.
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say,
$1000 is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should
someone who is responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're
not rolling in ready cash?
Here I am with devil's advocate again!
Why do you think "you're" entitled to a cat? Why should someone who's
responsible and employed, and rilly rilly needs a car be denied one
(and yes, I typed *car*) because they're not rolling in dough?
FFS, enough. Everyone give your cat a hug if you have one, and retreat to
your corners. If you all want to keep arguing this to death, I'm sure there
is a more appropriate group to do so.

Caine
--
Extra Bitchy (tm) all the time. Appalling conduct is Extra.
Winnie
2004-01-09 05:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renee
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:57:24 +1300, "Winnie"
Here I am with devil's advocate again!
Why do you think "you're" entitled to a cat? Why should someone who's
responsible and employed, and rilly rilly needs a car be denied one
(and yes, I typed *car*) because they're not rolling in dough?
Now you're just being silly. I'm not entitled to a cat, I am privileged
enough to be owned by one. I don't see why paying a *human* $1000 is
necessary. It's the cat that deigns to live with me.
Post by Renee
This group is all over human breeders for popping out sproggen
willy-nilly (and correctly so, IMO). We bitch that people with
hereditary diseases reproduce.
Quite right too.
Post by Renee
And yet some others of us are
supportive of someone who wants to "let their cat have kittens before
spaying because there aren't many kittens in the area" (Dear lord,
there are SO many things wrong with that sentence),
So how *do* you suggest that those of us who want a nice, mixed breed,
traditional moggy find one? Oh, right, we're not worthy and should only buy,
let's see a hairless wonder or a snuffling persian (yes I can play devil's
advocate too)
Post by Renee
regardless of the
"quality" of the cat in question (by which I mean health - which
probably can't be accurately determined if the breeding is early
enough that it's before spaying - and temperament.)
<sigh> obviously I'm only advocating breeding by responsible moggy owners,
in just the same way that pedigree owners are responsible, according to you.
Why does caring and responsible have to equal pedigree?
Post by Renee
It's my opinion that cats aren't a commodity. But hey, that's just me.
And me.
Post by Renee
The average moggie owner who plans to breed Fluffy to Max, is NOT
going to do genetic testing to ensure that there are no hereditary
conditions to be passed on. They probably aren't going to do pre- and
and Max in a room together, and wait for the screeching to stop. If
that - they may just let 'em go at it in the back yard.
Yep. The average is very, very low. We all know this.
Post by Renee
Plus, I'd tend to say - and Gwynheffar may correct me - that the
average moggie owner-breeder is like the average parunt. Their cat is
particularly lovely and charming and personable and would make a great
Mommy/Daddy. Whereas a "purpose-bred" (or purebred) breeder is likely
to NOT breed a cat who has an *objectively* inadequate temperament or
physical set of traits. They may love their cats just as much, but
they *don't* overlook the fact that she has that little "issue" that's
part of her charm.
Again, the average is very low.

I think we're on the same track here. We agree on limited, responsible
breeding. All I'm trying to say is that I love "ordinary" (anything but!)
moggies, and would hate to see breeding limited to pedigree cats only.

Cheers
Winnie
Renee
2004-01-09 05:51:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:33:27 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
I think we're on the same track here. We agree on limited, responsible
breeding. All I'm trying to say is that I love "ordinary" (anything but!)
moggies, and would hate to see breeding limited to pedigree cats only.
You know what? Upon reading your reply, I think perhaps you're right
on that. I believe only responsible breeders should breed animals of
any sort (humans, too). The average person Should Not Breed their pet
cat/dog/horse. However, I'm *not* a "purebred snob" - none of my cats
are purebred anything, and only one of them has any identifiable breed
in their background, even.

The problem, though, is definition of "moggie". Is it just the result
of random cats and natural selection? Must it, by definition, be a cat
whose offspring may or may not resemble it? Could moggies be a breed
unto themselves, though presumably with "breed standards" that are
exclusively temperament and health related, not physical attributes
(although I'd argue that "extremes" of flat-face/short legs/pointy
heads would be "against standard")?

And, to go back to purebred breeding, what about genetic/health
testing? If "responsible" moggie breeders met the same standards as
responsible purebred breeders, then moggies would presumably cost as
much as purebreds.

Oh, it's all so confusing!

Renee

"Fox has one of those new reality shows at eight, 'Fast Animals, Slow Children.'" -Peter Griffin
Winnie
2004-01-09 10:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renee
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:33:27 +1300, "Winnie"
You know what? Upon reading your reply, I think perhaps you're right
on that. I believe only responsible breeders should breed animals of
any sort (humans, too). The average person Should Not Breed their pet
cat/dog/horse. However, I'm *not* a "purebred snob" - none of my cats
are purebred anything, and only one of them has any identifiable breed
in their background, even.
Good for you, and same here. I once had a half-balinese cat, who was a
fickle madam, and broke my heart when she decided that she'd rather live in
the much posher house across the way.
Post by Renee
The problem, though, is definition of "moggie". Is it just the result
of random cats and natural selection? Must it, by definition, be a cat
whose offspring may or may not resemble it? Could moggies be a breed
unto themselves, though presumably with "breed standards" that are
exclusively temperament and health related, not physical attributes
(although I'd argue that "extremes" of flat-face/short legs/pointy
heads would be "against standard")?
Interesting question. We all know what a moggy *is*, and I suppose if one
were to make a breed standard it would have to stipulate health and
temperament alone, with no regard for looks. But, sigh, it would all get out
of hand....
Post by Renee
And, to go back to purebred breeding, what about genetic/health
testing? If "responsible" moggie breeders met the same standards as
responsible purebred breeders, then moggies would presumably cost as
much as purebreds.
I dunno, next time I see the vet I'll ask him what he'd charge for routine
pre-breeding stuff. I suspect not the hundreds of bucks that are being asked
for burmese kittens and the like.
Post by Renee
Oh, it's all so confusing!
Indeed, but don't worry - what we think will not change the tide of
irresponsible breeding, be it in cats, humans or antibiotic resistant germs.

Cheers
Winnie
Shaarx
2004-01-09 11:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winnie
Post by Renee
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:33:27 +1300, "Winnie"
You know what? Upon reading your reply, I think perhaps you're right
on that. I believe only responsible breeders should breed animals of
any sort (humans, too). The average person Should Not Breed their pet
cat/dog/horse. However, I'm *not* a "purebred snob" - none of my cats
are purebred anything, and only one of them has any identifiable breed
in their background, even.
Good for you, and same here. I once had a half-balinese cat, who was a
fickle madam, and broke my heart when she decided that she'd rather live in
the much posher house across the way.
It is totalling irresponsible to allow your cats to roam.
Post by Winnie
Post by Renee
The problem, though, is definition of "moggie". Is it just the result
of random cats and natural selection? Must it, by definition, be a cat
whose offspring may or may not resemble it? Could moggies be a breed
unto themselves, though presumably with "breed standards" that are
exclusively temperament and health related, not physical attributes
(although I'd argue that "extremes" of flat-face/short legs/pointy
heads would be "against standard")?
Interesting question. We all know what a moggy *is*, and I suppose if one
were to make a breed standard it would have to stipulate health and
temperament alone, with no regard for looks. But, sigh, it would all get out
of hand....
Post by Renee
And, to go back to purebred breeding, what about genetic/health
testing? If "responsible" moggie breeders met the same standards as
responsible purebred breeders, then moggies would presumably cost as
much as purebreds.
I dunno, next time I see the vet I'll ask him what he'd charge for routine
pre-breeding stuff. I suspect not the hundreds of bucks that are being asked
for burmese kittens and the like.
Post by Renee
Oh, it's all so confusing!
Indeed, but don't worry - what we think will not change the tide of
irresponsible breeding, be it in cats, humans or antibiotic resistant germs.
Cheers
Winnie
stePH
2004-01-09 14:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shaarx
It is totalling irresponsible to allow your cats to roam.
Why don't you go find the RogerHunterThing and debate that point? I
believe it was of the opinion that it was utterly wrong to keep
exclusively indoor cats.

Meantime, join it in my killfile.

*splonk*


stePH
--
Today's waste is tomorrow's overtime.
Shaarxi
2004-01-10 08:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by stePH
Post by Shaarx
It is totalling irresponsible to allow your cats to roam.
Why don't you go find the RogerHunterThing and debate that point? I
believe it was of the opinion that it was utterly wrong to keep
exclusively indoor cats.
Meantime, join it in my killfile.
*splonk*
Sounds like it is when a big black brother pulls his dick out of your nether
region....SHPLONK!!!!!.
Post by stePH
stePH
--
Today's waste is tomorrow's overtime.
stePH
2004-01-12 19:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shaarxi
Sounds like it is when a big black brother pulls his dick out of your nether
region....SHPLONK!!!!!.
I wouldn't know. I'll just take your word for it.
HarX
2004-01-13 09:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by stePH
Post by Shaarxi
Sounds like it is when a big black brother pulls his dick out of your nether
region....SHPLONK!!!!!.
I wouldn't know. I'll just take your word for it.
Shall I send you a copy of the tape of the sounds YOU made that night?
Michelle in WA state
2004-01-09 06:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renee
Whereas a "purpose-bred" (or purebred) breeder is likely
to NOT breed a cat who has an *objectively* inadequate temperament or
physical set of traits. They may love their cats just as much, but
they *don't* overlook the fact that she has that little "issue" that's
part of her charm.
If you seriously believe THAT, I'd like to invite you to lurk awhile on the
FanciersHealth Yahoo! group (which is mainly a breeders' group).

Probably there ARE some breeders who will remove an animal from their
"breeding program" because it has a health problem known or suspected to be
genetic. Some. Maybe there is even one, somewhere, who will quit breeding
an animal with a temperament issue.

Of course even those breeders are subject to the same ol' laws of
mathematics... that here in the US, and in *most* other countries in the
world today, there are simply *millions* (literally) more cats in need of
homes, than homes for cats. Purebred kittens generally get first shot at
the few (compared to the number of kittens, much less adult cats in need)
available homes.

But of course, as we all know, IDWIYO.

-- Michelle

Please, Don't Breed or Buy While Shelter Pets Die.
No kids 4 you
2004-01-10 22:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winnie
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say, $1000
is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should someone who is
responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're not rolling in ready
cash?
From: "Winnie"
Why should I be denied a Lamborgini because I am not rolling in "ready
cash"?<-----makes about as much sense.

Someone too poor for a pure breed can go to the shelter and get a shelter cat,
or simply look around the neighborhood for a stray.

People with less will always bitch about why they are 'denied' what people with
more are getting.

[I'm not saying you were bitching.]
Winnie
2004-01-10 22:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by No kids 4 you
Post by Winnie
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say, $1000
is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should someone who is
responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're not rolling in ready
cash?
From: "Winnie"
Why should I be denied a Lamborgini because I am not rolling in "ready
cash"?<-----makes about as much sense.
Someone too poor for a pure breed can go to the shelter and get a shelter cat,
or simply look around the neighborhood for a stray.
People with less will always bitch about why they are 'denied' what people with
more are getting.
[I'm not saying you were bitching.]
No, of course not, and I wasn't. I just don't think that it's necessary for
a cat to make that much profit for a human (and if we're talking $1000 plus
for a nice ordinary moggy kitten, that's a big profit). For starters, we all
know that no-one should have a pet, of any kind, unless they are prepared
tor the possibility of vets bills in the future. And I have no problem with
all kittens incurring a charge. I just think $1000 *minimum* is a bit silly.
There's more to life than cash....

Cheers
Winnie
No kids 4 you
2004-01-10 23:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of big fat vet bills, here's a tip for all of you with big vet bills.
Carecredit.com

Carecredit is available for dental and medical bills as well as vet bills! We
offer it for our patients and while checking into it I found out that they have
pet coverage too.
Shaarxi
2004-01-11 03:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winnie
Post by No kids 4 you
Post by Winnie
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say,
$1000
Post by No kids 4 you
Post by Winnie
is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should someone who is
responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're not rolling in
ready
Post by No kids 4 you
Post by Winnie
cash?
From: "Winnie"
Why should I be denied a Lamborgini because I am not rolling in "ready
cash"?<-----makes about as much sense.
Someone too poor for a pure breed can go to the shelter and get a
shelter
Post by Winnie
cat,
Post by No kids 4 you
or simply look around the neighborhood for a stray.
People with less will always bitch about why they are 'denied' what
people
Post by Winnie
with
Post by No kids 4 you
more are getting.
[I'm not saying you were bitching.]
No, of course not, and I wasn't. I just don't think that it's necessary for
a cat to make that much profit for a human (and if we're talking $1000 plus
for a nice ordinary moggy kitten, that's a big profit). For starters, we all
know that no-one should have a pet, of any kind, unless they are prepared
tor the possibility of vets bills in the future. And I have no problem with
all kittens incurring a charge. I just think $1000 *minimum* is a bit silly.
There's more to life than cash....
Cheers
Winnie
In this group, many people worship cash and/or LIEbrawlism.
David Richfield
2004-01-13 10:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winnie
Post by No kids 4 you
Post by Winnie
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that,
say, $1000 is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why
should someone who is responsible and caring be denied a cat
because they're not rolling in ready cash?
Why should I be denied a Lamborgini because I am not rolling in "ready
cash"?<-----makes about as much sense.
Someone too poor for a pure breed can go to the shelter and get a
shelter cat, or simply look around the neighborhood for a stray.
People with less will always bitch about why they are 'denied'
what people with more are getting.
[I'm not saying you were bitching.]
No, of course not, and I wasn't. I just don't think that it's
necessary for a cat to make that much profit for a human (and if
we're talking $1000 plus for a nice ordinary moggy kitten, that's a
big profit). For starters, we all know that no-one should have a
pet, of any kind, unless they are prepared tor the possibility of
vets bills in the future. And I have no problem with all kittens
incurring a charge. I just think $1000 *minimum* is a bit silly.
There's more to life than cash....
As far as I'm concerned, a pet breeder is in business. If you can
afford her product, buy from her. If she's charging more than the
market can bear, she will go out of business. Don't go analyzing her
expenses/income ratio.

Further: I'm a cat owner. My mother used to breed burmese and rex
when we lived on a farm. My folks will still get hot under the collar
about what breeders did to the siamese and persian head shapes, and
can't abide breeders that don't take care with their genetic
stock-in-trade. They own a beautiful, aggressive, intelligent,
neutered burmese tom. I understand and sympathise with people who
like cats and want to keep pet cats.

I own three cats. Two come from the local shelter, one was "stolen"
from a farm where our karate dojo was. When I told the sensei (and
farm owner), he replied that I had saved him a .22 bullet ;-).

All my cats are neutered, and are enjoying rude health.

HOWEVER

I am an ardent supporter of ANY means to reduce feral cat populations.
The Aussie conservationist who wears a cat-fur hat is a personal hero
of mine. Feral cats are a menace to any environment where they occur.

And, yes, I know that that will get the "no-kill" guys' hackles up. I
am not pro-life for animals or people. We should aim to minimize
suffering, but not at the expense of the environment.

My wife never knew cats before we got ours, and has since become an
ardent cat person. She will now never allow us to live without cats,
and I am not going to put my foot down. However, I am willing to
admit that even reasonably responsible cat ownership puts pressure on
wild populations. I applaud people who keep their cats inside to
protect the environment, but I am not that dedicated. My cats have
the run of the farm where I lodge, and are happier for it. I wonder
about that policy every time I am confronted with their prey. I
especially feel bad about the bats. Oh well. I also eat meat. Not a
perfect person, I guess.
Omixochitl
2004-01-13 11:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Richfield
And, yes, I know that that will get the "no-kill" guys' hackles up. I
am not pro-life for animals or people. We should aim to minimize
suffering, but not at the expense of the environment.
Um, isn't sparing the environment a major means of minimizing suffering?
:)
Winnie
2004-01-13 18:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Richfield
As far as I'm concerned, a pet breeder is in business. If you can
afford her product, buy from her. If she's charging more than the
market can bear, she will go out of business. Don't go analyzing her
expenses/income ratio.
I wouldn't normally; was referring to the proposed "only pedigree cat
breeders should be allowed to breed cats". At which point it does become my
business.

Cheers
Winnie
Orchid
2004-01-13 19:06:57 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:46:35 +1300, "Winnie"
Post by Winnie
Post by David Richfield
As far as I'm concerned, a pet breeder is in business. If you can
afford her product, buy from her. If she's charging more than the
market can bear, she will go out of business. Don't go analyzing her
expenses/income ratio.
I wouldn't normally; was referring to the proposed "only pedigree cat
breeders should be allowed to breed cats". At which point it does become my
business.
Okay. I really feel like we're at a mental chasm here. I
wasn't saying that only purebred breeders should be able to breed. I
was saying that the only people who should be able to breed cats are
those who are going to do it responsibly -- ie, genetic health
testing, sales contracts that protect the cats, proper pre- and
post-natal care, etc, etc, etc.
All that 'pedigree' means is that the ancestors of a cat is
known. And, AFAIAC, it'd be a damn good thing if moggy breeders knew
about health problems in the lines of their breeding cats. And since
temperament has a genetic component that is passed down through the
FATHER'S side, it'd be a damn good thing if a moggy breeder knew who
the father of the litter of kittens was, and knew he had good
temperament.

So, for the last time, pedigree != purebred.



Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Winnie
2004-01-13 19:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orchid
Okay. I really feel like we're at a mental chasm here. I
wasn't saying that only purebred breeders should be able to breed. I
was saying that the only people who should be able to breed cats are
those who are going to do it responsibly -- ie, genetic health
testing, sales contracts that protect the cats, proper pre- and
post-natal care, etc, etc, etc.
Well of course; in an ideal world that would go for the breeding of any
animal, including and especially humans (cos we're the biggest plague).
Post by Orchid
All that 'pedigree' means is that the ancestors of a cat is
known. And, AFAIAC, it'd be a damn good thing if moggy breeders knew
about health problems in the lines of their breeding cats. And since
temperament has a genetic component that is passed down through the
FATHER'S side, it'd be a damn good thing if a moggy breeder knew who
the father of the litter of kittens was, and knew he had good
temperament.
So, for the last time, pedigree != purebred.
Depends on which definition you choose:

Main Entry: ped·i·gree
Pronunciation: 'pe-d&-"grE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English pedegru, from Middle French pie de grue crane's
foot; from the shape made by the lines of a genealogical chart
Date: 15th century
1 : a register recording a line of ancestors
2 a : an ancestral line : LINEAGE b : the origin and the history of
something
3 a : a distinguished ancestry b : the recorded purity of breed of an
individual or strain

I never knew the bit about the crane's foot; most interesting!

Cheers
Winnie


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Winnie
2004-01-13 19:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for the attachment on that last post; I copied and pasted from
Merriam-Webster and Outlook helpfully got carried away. Grrr!

Cheers
Winnie
Gallilea
2004-01-13 20:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Richfield
I am an ardent supporter of ANY means to reduce feral cat populations.
The Aussie conservationist who wears a cat-fur hat is a personal hero
of mine. Feral cats are a menace to any environment where they occur.
*snip*
Post by David Richfield
I am willing to
admit that even reasonably responsible cat ownership puts pressure on
wild populations. I applaud people who keep their cats inside to
protect the environment, but I am not that dedicated. My cats have
the run of the farm where I lodge
So basically, you know that cats running around outside are a menace, but you
let your cats out anyway because you're not "dedicated" enough to keep them
inside? Don't you think that makes you the BNP of the cat-owning world?

Gallilea
BookWyrm
2004-01-14 21:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gallilea
Post by Orchid
I am willing to
admit that even reasonably responsible cat ownership puts pressure on
wild populations. I applaud people who keep their cats inside to
protect the environment, but I am not that dedicated. My cats have
the run of the farm where I lodge
So basically, you know that cats running around outside are a menace, but you
let your cats out anyway because you're not "dedicated" enough to keep them
inside? Don't you think that makes you the BNP of the cat-owning world?
FWIW, if that poster's cats are speutered, at least they aren't hunting to feed
kittens and making more feral cats.
--
And now you see that Evil will always triumph... because Good is dumb.
Shashay Doofray
2004-01-15 04:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by BookWyrm
FWIW, if that poster's cats are speutered, at least they aren't hunting to feed
kittens and making more feral cats.
speutered. I like that.

SD
Anthony J. Bryant
2004-01-15 17:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by BookWyrm
FWIW, if that poster's cats are speutered, at least they aren't hunting to feed
kittens and making more feral cats.
An old girlfriend refered to that as having her cat "broken." She pointed out
that it wasn't "fixing" them as up till the procedure everything had been in
perfect working order. <G>

Tony
David Richfield
2004-01-16 07:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gallilea
Post by David Richfield
I am an ardent supporter of ANY means to reduce feral cat populations.
The Aussie conservationist who wears a cat-fur hat is a personal hero
of mine. Feral cats are a menace to any environment where they occur.
*snip*
Post by David Richfield
I am willing to
admit that even reasonably responsible cat ownership puts pressure on
wild populations. I applaud people who keep their cats inside to
protect the environment, but I am not that dedicated. My cats have
the run of the farm where I lodge
So basically, you know that cats running around outside are a menace, but you
let your cats out anyway because you're not "dedicated" enough to keep them
inside? Don't you think that makes you the BNP of the cat-owning world?
Gallilea
I agree to an extent, except that I'm not letting my cats breed. There
is a difference between feral cats and neutered outside cats: Feral
cats are an uncontrolled pressure on the environment: they breed,
compete with local predators and eat local wildlife. My cats do not
breed, and only seldom catch anything. I would definitely not keep
indoor cats, so if I weren't going to let the cats run about outside,
there would be three more strays in the shelter. As I said in my
original post, I'm not perfect. Swings&Roundabouts.

David

--
David Richfield
david r at sun dot academic dot southafrica
academic is ac southafrica is za
Scarx
2004-01-17 00:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Richfield
Post by Gallilea
Post by David Richfield
I am an ardent supporter of ANY means to reduce feral cat populations.
The Aussie conservationist who wears a cat-fur hat is a personal hero
of mine. Feral cats are a menace to any environment where they occur.
*snip*
Post by David Richfield
I am willing to
admit that even reasonably responsible cat ownership puts pressure on
wild populations. I applaud people who keep their cats inside to
protect the environment, but I am not that dedicated. My cats have
the run of the farm where I lodge
So basically, you know that cats running around outside are a menace, but you
let your cats out anyway because you're not "dedicated" enough to keep them
inside? Don't you think that makes you the BNP of the cat-owning world?
Gallilea
I agree to an extent, except that I'm not letting my cats breed. There
is a difference between feral cats and neutered outside cats: Feral
cats are an uncontrolled pressure on the environment: they breed,
compete with local predators and eat local wildlife. My cats do not
breed, and only seldom catch anything. I would definitely not keep
indoor cats, so if I weren't going to let the cats run about outside,
there would be three more strays in the shelter. As I said in my
original post, I'm not perfect. Swings&Roundabouts.
David
It is NOT a good idea to allow cats to roam without close supervision. 99%
of urban vets concur.
Post by David Richfield
--
David Richfield
david r at sun dot academic dot southafrica
academic is ac southafrica is za
Shaarxi
2004-01-11 03:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by No kids 4 you
Post by Winnie
Whilst I agree in principle, in practice I don't. I think that, say, $1000
is too much money to have to pay for a kitten. Why should someone who is
responsible and caring be denied a cat because they're not rolling in ready
cash?
From: "Winnie"
Why should I be denied a Lamborgini because I am not rolling in "ready
cash"?<-----makes about as much sense.
Someone too poor for a pure breed can go to the shelter and get a shelter cat,
or simply look around the neighborhood for a stray.
People with less will always bitch about why they are 'denied' what people with
more are getting.
[I'm not saying you were bitching.]
A kitten is a living creature. A Lamborghini is not.
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